Towards the close of 1868, a number of philanthropic Glasgow gentlemen came together to try to address the problems in the city with “destitute boys found homeless and parentless in our streets.” The organization was called “The Clyde Industrial Training-Ship Society,” and it had the object of the establishment and maintenance of a training-ship on the Clyde, under the provisions of “The Industrial Schools Act,” for boys coming within the meaning of that Act. The training-ship would provide the necessary instruction for lads who had a liking for the sea and, when they took up employment, improve the character and efficiency of merchant seamen. They applied to the Government for a suitable ship and set about raising the funds to bring the ship to the Clyde and convert it to its new purpose.
The Government provided the Cumberland, a three-decker built at Chatham in 1842 and she was brought to the Clyde in May, 1869 to lie off Row in the Gareloch. Over the summer of 1869, the Society spent £2,800 raised through subscriptions and two bazaars to provide accommodation for the education and training of 500 boys. There were already 120 on board Cumberland when the inaugural meeting of the Society was held there towards the end of September. The weather was poor with heavy rain and Mr John Burns provided the steamer Racoon to take the bulk of the attendees from Greenock to the ship. Other steamers arrived from Helensburgh and Row.
Cumberland on the Gareloch
The Cumberland was under the command of Captain Alston, R.N. The boys were aged between 11 and 14. The Society had the charge for “the reception and training of boys who through poverty, parental neglect, or being orphans, or who from any other cause are left destitute and homeless and in danger of being contaminated by association with vice and crime—such boys being admitted, fed, and clothed, and instructed daily in Christian faith and practice from the Holy Scriptures.” Other boys could be sent for a charge of 5s. per week, although it was claimed that actual costs were in excess of this figure.
The Duke of Argyll provided ground ashore, near Ardencaple Castle for recreation and use of the boys and also a supply of water. The boys were drilled in a variety of areas including seamanship and the operation of the two guns on board. Discipline was strict with the birch used for major offences, the tawse and bread and water rations for other offenses. The education extended beyond reading, writing and arithmetic to include such subjects as music—the band gave public concerts and drew attention to the positive aspects of the enterprise.
Physical exercise with Indian clubs and dumbbells
On the morning of Monday, February 18, 1889, Cumberland was set on fire. There were 390 boys on board—10 of the complement were on leave—together with Captain George Deverell, R.N. who was then in command together with his wife, daughter and two maid-servants, and eight other staff. All were able to escape without injury although all belongings and the ship’s stored were lost. The Captain’s Newfoundland dog was also lost.
The fire broke out at midnight in the tailors’ store-room in the lower decks amidships. Straw mattresses were stored there and it was alleged that these mattresses were deliberately set on fire by some of the youths who had gained access to keys to the room. The fire spread rapidly, and defeated the crews who had manned the pumps but were hampered by the heavy smoke. The boys were well drilled in lowering the boats and all were accommodated between the launch, three cutters, the galley, a gig and the dingy. The boys were transferred to the training brig Cumbria which was used for summer cruising and was moored nearby.
The hulk of Cumberland was sold and scapped.
Four boys, James M‘Vey, William Lewis, John Rankine, and Jacob Napier were suspected of setting the fire and taken into custody. A fifth, Daniel Cowan was later added. James M‘Vey had run away a fortnight before but was captured near Bowling and returned to receive 12 strokes of the birch and Rankine was described as troublesome. At the subsequent trial, the boys pleaded not guilty and accused each other. The jury returned a verdict of not guilty against Cowan and not proven against the others.
Almost immediately, application was made to the Government by John Burns for another ship. They were offered H.M.S. Pembroke but this was not suitable and H.M.S. Revenge, built in 1859 was accepted and handed over on March 10, 1890. She was renamed Empress, and the cost of conversion to accommodate 400 boys was around £5,000.
Empress landing stage where the boys were a magnet for local girls
There was almost a repeat of the arson in October 1892 when four boys attempted to set fire to the ship. At their trial in December, they pled guilty.
In 1899, the Clyde Industrial Training Ship Association, as it was then called acquired the schooner, Selene, built by Robert Steele & Co., Greenock in 1864. She was used for summer cruising for the boys and was well known on the Firth until the Empress was closed.
Empress with the bow of Selene
Selene off Holy Isle on the Clyde
The boys’ day began at 6 a.m. and the lights out was 8:30 p.m. Food was adequate with porridge and bread for breakfast and potatoes and a little meat for the main meal. Milk was rarely available. Boys were allowed ashore under supervision and were generally well turned out. There was a landing stage where the ships boats came ashore.
For a time around 1902, Empress was joined on the Gareloch by H.M.T.S. Cleopatra where trainees for the Royal Navy were learning their trade.
HMTS Cleopatra
The Empress band
By 1923, the Clyde Industrial Training Ship Association could no longer justify the expense of running the ship compared with training on land. Consequently, at the annual meeting in June that year, the Empress was closed down. Towards the end of March in 1924, she left the Gareloch in tow of the Flying Foam and Flying Spray for Appledore in Devon where she was broken up.
Empress under tow to the breakers
November 4, 2016
My father Hans Peter Petersen was an Empress boy , sent to the training ship by his father because he played truant and wouldn’t go to school,it was a hard life and not as some put it a good and happy life , one of his shipmates like so many before him was taken from the streets because he was homeless and also had one hand missing , it was the making of my Dad it set him a life in the Merchant service and on his first main voyage , aged only 15 , he sailed around Cape Horn on a fully rigged sailing ship, as a young man he was awarded a medal for showing bravery and saving the lives of some of his mates when his ship S.S.Sheerness was sunk off the Tuskar rock , southern Ireland, he remained very strict towards his family, we think this was because of his time on the ~Empress, he unfortunately died quite young when he gave up the sea and became a waterman on the Clyde, he was killed in an accident while carrying out his duties
January 6, 2017
I understand my Grandfather John James McKenzie was on the Empress in 1901 and likely some time either side of that. The Scottish Census has him on a detainees list for the Empress for that year.
I am trying to find out more about his years on the Empress and would like to try to get a copy of his Certificate of Discharge.
Can anyone point me in the right direction.
Thank you
Colin Stuart McKenzie
January 27, 2017
Colin: It was a hard life and the personal stories that have come to the fore are touching and sometimes tragic.
January 27, 2017
Thank you Valeman. My grandfather died when I was just 12 and never spoke much of his past. Family lore suggests he ran away to sea at a young age, came to Australia before WW1 and joined the Royal Australian Navy. I have only recently found out about his time on the Empress.
Do you know if there is anywhere I can search the records about the Clyde Industrial Training Ships. I would dearly like to know what period he was there for.
Unfortunately after leaving Scotland as a young teenager he never returned.
I will be in Scotland in 2018 and would like to find out as much as I can about the Training Ships and particularly my grandfather.
Thank you
Colin
November 18, 2017
My maternal great grandfather James McDonald was one of the boys on the CTS Cumberland and later served on the CTS Empress. Click on the link below for more details on the CTS Cumberland and CTS Empress…. https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertpool/albums/72157689391527074
Robert Pool
November 19, 2017
Robert: You have some terrific information there. Graham
January 12, 2019
Hello looking through my maternal grandfathers belongings have found a postcard of the C T S Empress with a note to my Mother saying that this was his new ship and all being well he would bring her to see it that summer.Unfortunately it is undated.
My grandfather: Joseph Daniel Bull 1878-1968 ,Royal Navy ,Master at Arms,1890-1919 , Peninsula and Orient Line until 1930.Unless he was subconded from the RN the dates would be 1919 to 1923.I have also found an unwritten Christmas Card with a photo in an embossed mount presumably of the Empress or her fore runner.
Does anybody have lists of ex-crewmembers I thank anybody in anticipation of any reply in respect of this matter regards B.J.Andy Blackwell
January 12, 2019
B.J.Andy Blackwell – email me at robertpool@hotmail
January 12, 2019
my above link to the Clyde Training Ships no longer exists as of 8th Jan 2019, please contact me at above email address.
Robert Pool
February 3, 2019
My Grandfather Daniel Taylor (ne Ferguson, in Kilwinning) was on the Empress from the age of 12 (his name shows that he is there at the time of the 1911 census) and ended up as the apprentice/boy/cook on a Brixham Fishing Smack, Provident B291, at the age of 16 – and involved in a famous WWI rescue of 71 sailors from HMS Formidable which was sunk by a German U boat on 1st January, 1915 (The Formidable Disaster) – in a huge storm at around 2.00 a.m. in the English Channel.
In Brixham there was a boys home, the British Seaman’s Orphan Boys’ Home, where the boys wore uniforms like those on the Empress etc.. I wonder if there was a link between the home and the training ships and if that was maybe how Daniel got his apprenticeship on the fishing smack – a very long way away from his family home in Ayrshire and from Rhu.
Daniel received money and the Sea Gallantry Medal (the civilian equivalent of the Albert Medal) from the King – and has a whole chapter in a children’s story book of war time bravery – also appearing on the English Heritage Blue Plaque in Brixham, unveiled in 2010 on the now former Fisherman’s Mission building.
I have tried to find records of the training ships at the Mitchell Library and elsewhere but no luck , hoping I could find more information about why Daniel was there; what happened when the individuals were discharged etc. (presumably found an apprenticeship).
May 3, 2019
Just discovered that my Great Grandmother’s illegitimate son John Burns Hardie was part of Empress Training ship boys in 1900 according to poor relief record of the time. However I cannot find any other records for the Empress and again I have another loose end in the family line. Looked for census records but unsure as to what area I would identify it under.
November 5, 2019
send me your email address and i will send you a copy of the cover page of the 1891 Empress census, then you will know what you are looking for.
Robert Pool
robertpool@hotmail.com
November 5, 2019
the 1901 census will look pretty much the same
Robert
March 5, 2021
The Scottish Census of 1901 shows that my grandfather, Samuel Kempen, was a boy under detention on the Empress on the night of the Census. He joined the Royal Navy in Dec 1904 and I have obtained his Naval Record from the Internet. He came from a large Victorian family and I have little other info about him as my Father never discussed him, or indeed spoke about him, during his lifetime and there are no photographs of him either.
March 25, 2021
Valeman: let me have your email address and l will send you a copy of my Great Grandfathers reference letter from Captain Alston of the CTS Cumberland for your archive.
Regards,
Robert D. Pool
July 15, 2021
Ive just been to Rhu to see the monuement for the lads who died while during their time on the Cumberland its in the Rhu cemetery next to the grave of Henry Bell Rhu is a lovely place and well worth a visit
July 15, 2021
my great grandfather James McDonald has a plot in RHU Cemetery but l have never found it 🙁
April 12, 2022
I have been going through my late father’s possessions and found a travelling escritoire which was gifted as a wedding present to James Scott from his mess mates on CTS Empress. Inside are a variety of documents and photos of James and his wife. He was an uncle of my father. I am at a loss as to what best to do with it and wondered if you might know of any person or museum with an interest in CTS Empress that might wish to examine it and its contents with a view to doing something other than simply leave it in my attic for my successors to ponder when I am no longer here?
April 12, 2022
Donald: A tricky question that I have faced and partly the reason I started this website. Most libraries and museums are reluctant to take small collections without funds to catalog and preserve. I’d suggest getting in touch with Helensburgh Library. They may know what best to do. Graham
April 12, 2022
Many thanks Graham, will try. It seems too special to just be disposed of eventually when others might have an interest. It’s certainly been enlightening to find out a little about one of my extended family.
April 19, 2023
Hi, I’m from the Scottish Maritime Museum and this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that we would collect. I have been looking into boys training ships (Mars etc) for a few years, but we have always struggled to find artefacts and photographs that we can use to tell the story. If you would like to consider donating anything to the Museum’s collection we would be very grateful. Contact address: abigail@scotmaritime.org.uk
February 13, 2023
My grandfather was on the Empress (1891 census). He was sent by his mother from County Antrim In Northern Ireland, for fighting and drinking. There were few job prospects in Ireland. My grandfather eventually got a job as an engineers assistant building the famous ship The Maheno. He got a job on board and travelled to NZ where he emigrated and started a family. He became a farmer, selling his milk in town, and later became the town milkman. He had 10 children and was a strict father, probably because of the Empress. It sounds like the Captain was very firm but very kind.
April 20, 2023
HI Abigail,
further to your e-mail yesterday ref. CTS Empress; the escritoire and most relevant documents and photos were donated to Helensburgh Heritage Trust via Stewart Noble. I do have scans of most if not all the paper contents which I can e-mail to you if you wish. Stewart also did some research and provided me with an account of my great uncle.
Many best wishes,
Donald
April 20, 2023
Hi Donald,
I am so pleased to hear that the items have found a new home. I would love to see a copy of the documents that you have described as I am trying to build a research folder folder for the Museum, which I hope one day could turn into an exhibition. If you are happy to share them, please do forward them on.
Warm regards,
Abigail
July 23, 2023
I am looking into the historical records for Gilbert John Innes, whom I believe was a trustee of this ship, called “Empress”. I am aware it was scrapped in 1923. I believe Gilbert John Innes provided further information, records, accounts and letters after this date and up to 1959. In 1928 he lived in the village of Killearn where he formed the Killearn Trust and was known locally as a ship owner. It would be interesting information to add to the history and heritage.
January 10, 2024
Thank you for the wonderful photos and a glimpse into the lives of the boys.
I have discovered that my great grandfather was on the Empress some time between the death of his father in 1892 ( he would have been 10 years old at the time) and the census of 1901 showing then he was an inmate of the City Orphanage as a trainee Upholsterer. Through quarriers we discovered his younger sisters went to Quarriers village after their mother gave them over as she was unable to work and keep them but we have no further details on my great grandfather other than on their admission their elder brother was aboard the Empress until he entered the orphanage.
I would love to try and find any further detail about his admission if there would be more specific details, I just don’t know where to look?
January 11, 2024
you could try The Mitchell Library, North Street, Glasgow or The Helensburgh Library.
Regards,
Robert
March 21, 2024
A full account of the history of the two Clyde Training Ships (Cumberland and Empress) has just been released (2024) by Greenock writer Viki McDonnell. The title of the 250-page book is SNATCHED FROM SATAN and is well worth a read if you have any interest in this topic (or even if you don’t!). All enquiries answered promptly . . . How do I send Valeman a free copy?
March 21, 2024
Hi Vicki. So happy to hear about the book. My grandfather was an Empress Boy.
How can I order a copy of your book? I live in Australia and my email is
colmac52@yahoo.com.au
Kind regards
Colin
March 21, 2024
Colin, I have replied direct to your email address.
March 21, 2024
where can l buy a copy
Regards,
Robert Pool
robertpool@hotmail.com
March 21, 2024
Robert, I have replied direct to your email address. Thanks for enquiry.
March 22, 2024
l have not received email. please check you have sent to robertpool@hotmail.com
regards,
Robert
March 22, 2024
Yes, Robert, I used the correct address for two emails I sent you last night and they’re showing as ‘sent’ on my system, (One if them was a repeat of a message I sent you on 24th January this year!) Do you have an alternative address I can try. Regards, Viki
March 23, 2024
all-my-messages@hotmail.com
March 23, 2024
Robert, I sent a messagel to your alternative email address a few hours ago but haven’t yet had a response. I’ll Keep persevering! Regards, Viki
October 3, 2024
Hello Viki
My Grandfather George Moore was on the “Empress” he went onto working on the building of the SS Maheno, built Scotland, then along with his brother worked on the ship for delivery to New Zealand. He settled in Christchurch NZ along with other family who also came here. The “Maheno” is a ship wreck, now lying off Hervey Bay, Sunshine Coast Australia. All this family history was never discussed, I had no idea about the life lead by my ancesters, but it helps explain little snippets, how hard life was for my mother and family. A life so different to my grandchildren in 2024. I would really appreciate finding out where I could get a copy of your book I feel it is so important to pass on history to my family. carol.brownnz@yahoo.co.nz.
Kind Regards Carol New Zealand
March 21, 2024
For interest – yesterday, 20th March 2024, was the 100th anniversary of the Empress leaving the Clyde to go to be broken up at Appledore after many years of setrvice on the Gareloch. – See thegreenockian.blogspot.com. Her passing was commemorated by a small group (of 2!) here in Greenock.
March 21, 2024
Would be very interested in a copy of your book. Where is it available from?
March 22, 2024
Hi Leanne – Thanks for enquiry. Book can be obtained from me direct. Send your email address and I’ll contact you with details. Regards, Viki
March 22, 2024
Thank you Viki. My email address is leanne_freuchie@yahoo.co.uk. kind regards 😊
March 29, 2024
hballantyne0@gmail.com Viki my grandfather was on this ship then built ships and sailed in one to NZ where I live.
Heather
March 30, 2024
Heather, I’m intrigued! I’ve sent you an email asking for more details. Viki
May 20, 2024
My father Alexander Stewart was on the Emeress (?). He was born in 1892. His mother Mary died young and he started waging school. He later served with the Cameronians through WW1 and migrated to Australia in 1962.